I don't understand how this last part goes along with your analogy of "setting something free" with the special condition that something/one more desirable is waiting. God didn't tell us to do something, then punish us for doing exactly that.

I don't understand why you're arguing that the Genesis account of the Fall never happened; if the Fall never happened, then we don't need salvation and Jesus wasn't necessary at all--he was just exemplary in how to act. I don't understand your Christianity at all! Do you believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God? If so, why would God not deliver his Son from the hands of the jealous Pharisees and the misguided Romans if it wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for our sins? Please clarify what you believe concerning the Fall and Redemption and Jesus.

A feeling is not intuition. I don't have a feeling that I will have cereal this morning, I have an intuition that I will have cereal this morning. Feelings help you live your life so that you can survive and reproduce; they don't help you determine if something is real or not.


For example, I stole a muffin from a neighbor, but then I felt guilty so I gave it back. That is a reputation moral. The better reputation we have, the more likely we will survive and reproduce. Guilt helps us live by this moral.

However, let's say that I was walking by my neighbors house, and I smell muffins. I now have the intuition that they have muffins. What I do with that intuition, I don't know, but I didn't have a feeling that they had muffins, I had intuition.

Melidere, do you honestly believe what you just posted? The forbidden fruit of wisdom/knowledge had to exist for there to be free will? There are a ton of things wrong with that statement, that you could find by just reading the first few pages of the bible.

According to you, the fruit existed because God wanted us to have free will. We will just ignore the fact that God could grant us free will whenever and however he saw fit, we will go along with the bible story. Everything I would like to say is summed up in a video, that I will repost because it is amazing.

Free will existed all along. We had the free will to listen to God as he told us not to eat the apple. Adam and Eve listened. They could have eaten it easily, but they decided to listen. When the serpent came along, who could somehow talk (holy crap, a talking snake!) and told them to that God was lying, and you wouldn't die when you ate the fruit, Eve used her free will to listen to the snake and eat the fruit. According to the bible, she was persuaded to eat the fruit, and you can only be persuaded if you have free will.

The fruit is NOT the origin of free will, we had it all along. The fruit is a lie perpetrated by God to keep us ignorant. What the hell kind of God is that?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c</a>

Yes, I honestly believe, although I didn't have much time to look it over so I apologize that you misunderstood me.
You're absolutely right that the fruit didn't start free will; God created us with it all along. The fruit symbolized how we would use that free will--and Satan made sure that we failed the test. He told us parts of the truth--he's too smart to outright lie. Obviously, Adam and Eve did not physically die that day. What I believe (based on the fact that Jesus rose with a spiritual body, and also on the basis that Paul refers to us as dead in our sins until Christ revives us) is that our spiritual body died that day, leaving us with just a physical body, emphasizing our nakedness with no spiritual body to cover our physical body. I believe this is also why God asked "Where are you?"--spiritually we just weren't around anymore, and God was used to relating to us on a spiritual level. He probably also asked this to give us a chance to own up to our mistake--and Adam knew better than to keep hiding, although he failed to own up to taking the blame, letting that rest instead on Eve's shoulders--and she on the snake (and not only did the snake talk, as I believe all the animals did until God put the fear of man into animals' hearts after the flood; it also walked, as is evidenced by the curse given to it). The short of it is, God did tell the truth when he warned we would die if we ate the fruit, but he wasn't willing to throw in the towel when we messed up his perfect creation.
And you didn't need to re-post the amazingly despicable video; I watched it the first time and couldn't believe how disrespectful it was. To call God the liar and Satan truthful is nothing short of blasphemy!

There are a lot of things I would like to address about your post Melidere, but this is something that needs to be cleared up now. Firstly, blasphemy is the name of the game. When we discovered that the sun is stationary, and the Earth rotates it, that was called blasphemy. When we discovered that the earth was round, and didn’t have four corners, it was called blasphemy.

It seems that blasphemy is something that the church doesn’t want to hear, because it contradicts their beliefs, no matter how much logic and evidence the ‘blasphemy’ has, it is nothing but a lie to the church and its followers.

The problem stems from close-mindedness. You don’t want to even consider what he says, you call it blasphemy and move on. Do you still consider the earth being round blasphemy?

Of course you don’t. Why? Because you were raised with the knowledge that it was in fact, round. You never questioned it. If it wasn’t for the school bell ringing, my class in elementary school would have never ended. The earth is round!? I had heard bible allusions all my life about the four corners of the earth, and of course, I had never experienced the “roundness” of the earth myself. The day I learned that the earth moved was also a day of great confusion. How could it possibly move THAT FAST! You would think we would experience it. Gravity, and the sun being a star were also similar days of awe. My favorite though, was when  some sort of space contraption launched. That day, we learned that stars were hot-hot-hot-hot-hot gas. I cried that day thinking that the space crew aboard the contraption would be burnt from all the stars.

When I was young, and before I went to school, the earth was flat, stars littered space everywhere, the earth didn’t move, as least for me. But when I heard the contrary, I didn’t dismiss it as bullshit. I listened and I asked questions. But I didn’t just believe what they were saying either. In fact, it took me a long time to believe those things, because I considered it so much. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t being fooled, that things really were different than I saw them.

Just because you hear something you don’t like, something that turns your world upside down, doesn’t mean that it is blasphemy. This is evidenced from many scientific discoveries that were once considered blasphemy.

When you watched that video, you saw nothing but blasphemy. You were insulted by it, and you obviously didn’t consider what he said. That is close-mindedness, and I think it disrespectful, and despicable to dismiss the video so carelessly. You aren’t here to learn about other peoples beliefs, you are here only to show your side of things, and when you hear another point of view, you dismiss it as blasphemy.

this is a public forum; this is why I've edited your previous posts to show only the screen names and not real names. 
anyone using the internet that comes across this site can read anything put here, and I am horribly embarrassed that you'd bring up such a personal matter on not just a public forum but also on one which my fiancé's family member writes.
I am not just embarrassed for myself but also for my fiancé; I can't imagine what he would say knowing this, and to not consider our privacy before posting such a thing I find really upsetting.  I didn't have the chance to even review it before L_R could see it, which makes me wonder what he must think as well...I am embarrassed for him, too.
it is a private matter, and I sincerely hope it hasn't gotten out to any other family members; I cannot even imagine what we'll have to deal with if my fiancé's parents get wind.

I'm going to remove it.  It's likely too late, but it does not deserve a place here.



as far as what keeps me from 'just believing,'  I have never been the sort to follow anything without asking questions.  I cannot blindly obey because it goes against my nature.
I'm sorry if that answer is too vague, but it'll just have to do; I have always had to know the 'whys' of things, and that does not stop with religion.

I also don't understand why religion feels it inherently commands respect - 'respect my beliefs, even if you don't agree.'
I don't respect people who murder others, I don't respect people who belong to the KKK; to me, religion is a possibility, a way of thinking - it isn't the only thing that matters in life, it's a part of life (whether active or inactive).


I'm sure you don't respect the 9/11 attackers' convictions.  I can respect a person's rationale, their ability to make decisions for themselves; however, when something focuses on intolerance and hate and discrimination, I simply cannot respect that.
I am intolerant of religion's intolerances, which is hypocritical; however, I think being tolerant of such things is far worse.


I do value you as a friend; however, I do not want to be a conversion project.  I have no trouble agreeing to disagree, and I do feel that you make some excellent points; still, I would appreciate it if you validated my opinion, as I try to do yours (that is:  I understand that your opinion has value, and if it never changes, that's fine; however, I have perfectly legitimate reasons for believing what I do as well, and I sometimes feel that you don't believe my reasoning or answers - or L_R's - are good enough).

also, I am not angry at the bible for anything; I have always viewed it as a piece of literature ever since I can remember.  it can say anything it wants; it's an old book, and I'm not angry about anything written in it (it's just text on paper) - I'm put off by those that push it onto others and try to use it to justify their hatred, intolerance, discrimination, etc.
the bible's - and church's - position on things doesn't affect me as a law, & the matter originally brought up (since deleted) is MY OWN position - it has nothing to do with bible doctrines.
I also think the matter was misunderstood; I wouldn't change any part of my life, as it has lead me to where I am now.  I will tell my children the lessons I've learned to help educate them to possibilities; whether they follow them cannot entirely be helped, and I will not keep them on a leash once they are old enough to make their own decisions.

now that I'm calmed a bit more, I'm going to address the rest:
I have to echo L_R on this one:
I realise it's not pleasant when someone picks apart a person one cares for and is close to; however, I should think God can take care of himself and is probably used to it.
if someone were saying such things about your husband or children, it makes sense that you'd be upset; however, God is an idea and a concept (to me, at least) - if someone doesn't believe in ghosts, I don't find that offensive.

respect is earned, as is trust.
plenty of people throughout history have had authority and simultaneously proved they cannot be trusted or respected (hitler, stalin, former VP cheney, et c).  because I'm human, naturally I use human standards.



when you say you don't understand why I feel the way I do about God/the bible, it puzzles me more than anything - other than the fact that I realise my position is so different from yours, it may be hard to reconcile.  I have nonetheless tried to be clear about this; if I've failed, I apologise.


I will try again:

- I have always assumed (from as young as I can recall) that the bible was/is a story book, a piece of literature.  I've never naturally thought of it as points of fact; in order to do this, I have to make a conscious effort;

- I have an intuition that a God exists, and the version I imagine is undoubtedly influenced (at least in part) by my slight Catholic upbringing - but isn't dictated by it.  whether others infer that I'm unstructured or flighty or simply unwilling to commit to an idea by my lack of definition is their choice, but I personally feel - quite strongly - that a loving, fair God wouldn't get het-up over any definition that doesn't exactly match the truth.  as long as one believes in Him and does not use His name to promote abhorrent ideals, the God I believe in lets the details slide and doesn't get caught up in syntax -

- and yes, I realise it may sound like I'm making up my own rules; perhaps I am; but iif people for centuries and millenia have been allowed to make up theirs, then so entitled am I (Reformed, Methodist, and all the other newer denominations which came from  Protestantism which came from Catholicism which came from Judaism from....et c,et c);

- whether one chooses to believe it or not, there are loads of contradictions in the bible.  I also do not feel that an event written in one book which is 'confirmed' in another political ploy - er, religious book - necessarily proves that such events did in fact occur.  I need scientific and/or physical evidence, and too much of the bible 'prophecies' haven't been proven in real life;

- the probability of a God existing at all is far lower than the probability of one not existing;

- finally, I am so tired of all of the religious people I've ever met using God as an excuse to be a certain way instead of one holding oneself accountable for one's own actions.  whether I'm being a b*tch or being nice, no-one is pulling my strings; the decisions I've made in life are my own, whether I'd retrospectively condone them or not.  every human is different, and to pretend that humans intrinsically have no value (other than whatever God deems necessary) and that they aren't capable of acting of their own accord are the most cynical viewpoints one can have.

I am not 'mad at the God of the Bible'; to me, that god is simply a character in a book.  as I've said before, it's the actions of those followers that shove their self-righteousness onto others and that try to dictate others' lives to the letter (anti-gay-marriage, prohibition of the right to choice, pro-war) that angers me.


I would like to say for certain that God exists, but I cannot - and don't feel I'll ever be 100% able to do so.



L_R: as for your question of WHY I believe, there's not much else I can add other than the above 'bullet points' two and three; add to this a sort of light indoctrination (being raised to believe, though it was never a focal point in my family life) and an idealism (and selfish wish) that there's more to live, and you pretty much have my reasons.


finally:
I was also wondering this myself.  if you (melidere) truly want to understand what I or anyone else believes (those of us whose beliefs differ from yours), try watching a video or reading an opposing position with an open mind:  don't sit there with disagreements piling up, try to look at it objectively and with the intent to UNDERSTAND* the material.


(*not 'agree with,' but comprehend)

To me, God is the only person I can count on--the one who moves with me even if I lose all my friends (and having moved more than 10 times in my childhood, that was important to me). Even my original family doesn't live up to the love I have for God--my family has failed me time and time again, but God has ALWAYS been there and pulled me through somehow or another, and I can count on it that he always will be there. I can't wait to get to heaven and meet him in person!