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melidere
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« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2008, 01:52:15 PM » |
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i would think God would care more about those who struggle with their beliefs and faith, if he's as fair and loving and all those other 'good' things we're supposed to believe. why would he essentially favour those with more of a 'free ride' and abandon those of us who have difficulties?
for a god to focus on those that already are sold on him and simply take no interest in those who aren't, that certainly is quite appalling, really.
Where did I say that he favors those who don't struggle? I said that he picks out his children beforehand, but I didn't say that he makes it easy for them all. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. |
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Scott
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« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2008, 03:07:00 PM » |
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also, By talking about Catholics who "idolatrize" Christianity by saving themselves, I meant those who spit on Christ's redemption and say, "Thank you very much, I can save myself through works without your help." Is that what all Catholics believe or just some? those in my family & mike's don't seem to subscribe to that way of thinking. i thought part of catholicism was acknowledging jesus died for our sins & that we were indebted to him for that, but i've never personally dealt with any that hold such little regard for Jesus. i'm curious where this comes from; if any of you have any examples for me, i'd be open to seeing them.  Haha.. seriously. More like- http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/ |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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The Sleeper
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« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2008, 04:22:22 PM » |
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i would think God would care more about those who struggle with their beliefs and faith, if he's as fair and loving and all those other 'good' things we're supposed to believe. why would he essentially favour those with more of a 'free ride' and abandon those of us who have difficulties?
for a god to focus on those that already are sold on him and simply take no interest in those who aren't, that certainly is quite appalling, really.
Where did I say that he favors those who don't struggle? I said that he picks out his children beforehand, but I didn't say that he makes it easy for them all. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. Even so, you're basically saying some people are screwed no matter what. How on earth is this remotely just or fair? |
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Okay, woke to a grocery list...
Goes like this:
Duty and death.
-Aesop Rock
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Scott
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« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2008, 06:56:44 AM » |
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i would think God would care more about those who struggle with their beliefs and faith, if he's as fair and loving and all those other 'good' things we're supposed to believe. why would he essentially favour those with more of a 'free ride' and abandon those of us who have difficulties?
for a god to focus on those that already are sold on him and simply take no interest in those who aren't, that certainly is quite appalling, really.
Where did I say that he favors those who don't struggle? I said that he picks out his children beforehand, but I didn't say that he makes it easy for them all. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. Even so, you're basically saying some people are screwed no matter what. How on earth is this remotely just or fair? I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2008, 06:58:21 PM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? |
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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Scott
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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2008, 10:33:38 AM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? God only knows. Sorry, someone had to say it.  |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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The Sleeper
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2008, 11:56:15 AM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? Duh, he doesn't love you as much as some of his cooler creations. |
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Okay, woke to a grocery list...
Goes like this:
Duty and death.
-Aesop Rock
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melidere
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« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2008, 01:19:30 PM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? Who says he is giving up? You're still alive; you're still conversing; there's still hope. He won't call you any louder because he doesn't want to essentially force you to believe in him; he wants to be truly loved--otherwise he wouldn't have created free will. If he just wanted to be worshiped he could give overwhelming proof of Hell and we'd all be scared into the kingdom. But that's apparently not all he wants. And you're right it's not fair that God saves any of us. He could have scrapped the whole free will thing when Adam and Eve sinned--or before that, for that matter, since he's omniscient. But he decided he's going to put up with the evil in this world for a time for the sake of those of us he's willing to save. If he has softened your heart to be able to accept him, the choice is up to you. There are some whose hearts he hardens, but they're only getting what they deserve as Adam's heirs and fellow sinners, anyway. Not one of us deserves even the air we breathe; it is our society of entitlement that makes you look at it from the perspective of he's not being good enough. |
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The Sleeper
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« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2008, 01:21:55 PM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? Who says he is giving up? You're still alive; you're still conversing; there's still hope. He won't call you any louder because he doesn't want to essentially force you to believe in him; he wants to be truly loved--otherwise he wouldn't have created free will. If he just wanted to be worshiped he could give overwhelming proof of Hell and we'd all be scared into the kingdom. But that's apparently not all he wants. And you're right it's not fair that God saves any of us. He could have scrapped the whole free will thing when Adam and Eve sinned--or before that, for that matter, since he's omniscient. But he decided he's going to put up with the evil in this world for a time for the sake of those of us he's willing to save. If he has softened your heart to be able to accept him, the choice is up to you. There are some whose hearts he hardens, but they're only getting what they deserve as Adam's heirs and fellow sinners, anyway. Not one of us deserves even the air we breathe; it is our society of entitlement that makes you look at it from the perspective of h e's not being good enough. Why are we alive if we don't deserve it? What's the damn point if some people will never 'soften their hearts'? Do they even get the chance? Really? Maybe it's not so much a society of entitlement as people no longer blindly accepting everything they're told. Maybe people are starting to say 'Really? Is that how it is? Why? Why is it like this? Where are the answers?' |
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Okay, woke to a grocery list...
Goes like this:
Duty and death.
-Aesop Rock
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Scott
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« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2008, 02:23:21 PM » |
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I'm not ready for this thread to die yet, so I'm responding: it's not fair, nor is it 'just.' i agree on both counts. Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? Who says he is giving up? You're still alive; you're still conversing; there's still hope. He won't call you any louder because he doesn't want to essentially force you to believe in him; he wants to be truly loved--otherwise he wouldn't have created free will. If he just wanted to be worshiped he could give overwhelming proof of Hell and we'd all be scared into the kingdom. But that's apparently not all he wants. So for the people who aren't scared into the kingdom, he offers them a billion confusing distractions?
And you're right it's not fair that God saves any of us. He could have scrapped the whole free will thing when Adam and Eve sinned--or before that, for that matter, since he's omniscient. But he decided he's going to put up with the evil in this world for a time for the sake of those of us he's willing to save. If he has softened your heart to be able to accept him, the choice is up to you. There are some whose hearts he hardens, but they're only getting what they deserve as Adam's heirs and fellow sinners, anyway. Not one of us deserves even the air we breathe; it is our society of entitlement that makes you look at it from the perspective of he's not being good enough.
You're aware that there are far easier ways to get people to love you, right? Especially if you're God and you know everything. You could figure out a way for all people to love you unconditionally that doesn't involve the threat of eternal pain and suffering. Am I right or am I right? |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2008, 03:52:14 PM » |
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So for the people who aren't scared into the kingdom, he offers them a billion confusing distractions? i guess so.  You're aware that there are far easier ways to get people to love you, right?
Especially if you're God and you know everything. You could figure out a way for all people to love you unconditionally that doesn't involve the threat of eternal pain and suffering.
Am I right or am I right? *woop woop woop* rofl i suppose that, again, would go against free will. this whole thing makes me wonder, though, if we shouldn't instead have started by asking, what is the point of free will?(i'd italicise it, but i don't want it to be overlooked, hehe) it still doesn't make sense to me why any given god would provide us the opportunity to question him(/her/it) if s/h/it knows that they are the truth. why would they allow a fact to become interpretive? |
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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Scott
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« Reply #131 on: October 14, 2008, 09:08:00 PM » |
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So for the people who aren't scared into the kingdom, he offers them a billion confusing distractions? i guess so. You're aware that there are far easier ways to get people to love you, right?
Especially if you're God and you know everything. You could figure out a way for all people to love you unconditionally that doesn't involve the threat of eternal pain and suffering.
Am I right or am I right? *woop woop woop* rofl i suppose that, again, would go against free will. this whole thing makes me wonder, though, if we shouldn't instead have started by asking, what is the point of free will?(i'd italicise it, but i don't want it to be overlooked, hehe) it still doesn't make sense to me why any given god would provide us the opportunity to question him(/her/it) if s/h/it knows that they are the truth. why would they allow a fact to become interpretive? s/h/it ? haha. if shit knows the truth, we've been praying in the wrong direction. zing! |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2009, 08:06:14 PM » |
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they don't call it 'praying to the porcelain god' for nothing, i guess
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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melidere
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« Reply #133 on: June 19, 2009, 12:29:09 PM » |
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Some of us, yes, do get a free ride--our faith isn't very deep because it hasn't been tested as thoroughly. But some of us struggle with the knowledge that he's calling to us--and we aren't sure if we want to hear him or not. i still take issue with this because i wonder: if he's calling to me and i can't (won't?) hear him, why wouldn't he try harder? i mean, he's GOD. why would he give up so easily? Who says he is giving up? You're still alive; you're still conversing; there's still hope. He won't call you any louder because he doesn't want to essentially force you to believe in him; he wants to be truly loved--otherwise he wouldn't have created free will. If he just wanted to be worshiped he could give overwhelming proof of Hell and we'd all be scared into the kingdom. But that's apparently not all he wants. [/quote] So for the people who aren't scared into the kingdom, he offers them a billion confusing distractions? [/quote] You're missing the point. He doesn't want people to be scared into the kingdom. He wants them to get to know him and see that he is good, someone to love. And he allows distractions; Satan offers them. Although we have to take credit ourselves sometimes for failing to prioritize. |
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #134 on: June 19, 2009, 04:42:31 PM » |
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perhaps it's along the lines of 'if you love something, set it free'.
however, here's what would happen if I decided to apply that to my relationship with Mike:
say I decided to 'set him free' and let him go in whichever direction he wants - with the special condition that there be someone far more appealing to him waiting for the opportunity to snatch him up, which both of us would be fully aware of.
I'd be foolish to think he'd wait round for me without even a second thought. a lot of christians I've dealt with say that it's a sin to even question the Lord; if this is the case, then why would He give us free will and allow satan to infiltrate humanity at all?
if a person said, 'here, have my muffin; I don't want it,' I took it, and was then punished by the giver for doing so, I'd not care to associate with that person any longer.
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