Here is where Christians would say "we do not and can not know His will. we don't have the capacity and He has his reasons." I know, because I used to say that very thing. But here's the problem with that:

If the entire premise for our being here is to come to love God by virtue of our own free will, doesn't God's omniscience get in the way of that? God (being all-knowing) knows the beginning, the end and everything in between. God knew you before you were conceived. God knows how many hairs you have on your head at any given moment. God knows when you'll die, how you'll die and where you'll end up.

And again, if the premise for our being here is to come to love God by virtue of our own free will, wouldn't that mean God would have endowed us with the capacity of a true sense of logic in order to complete that task? If that logic tells us that, in order for God to be omniscient, He would have to know every minute detail about the universe regardless of time, doesn't that same logic tell you that running the experiment would be absolutely pointless?

For instance, I can predict with absolute certainty that I will type a '1' at the end of this line: 1

I did it, but I didn't have to in order to know what would happen. I'm not God but our "god-given" logic leads me to that very conclusion.

So why would an omniscient God carry out an experiment at all? He would not.

So unless God is lying about the reasoning (that we would love Him of our own free will), the false logic would also lead me to the conclusion that the Christian God doesn't make sense and therefore, doesn't exist.


Yes, I've heard the analogy that most of the monotheistic gods, once described, sound like children. That comes with the territory, I think.

I don't know that it's a sin to be angry. Jesus got angry when he saw merchants doing business in the temple and he knocked over their tables.

As for the rest, I think this article sums it up nicely-

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/madgod.html

I was raised with the belief that Catholics were going to Hell; however, I have found more than one Catholic whose beliefs were very similar to my own. I think the key here is that there are still some Catholics who want to save themselves (putting themselves in Jesus's place=idolatry) or who pray to saints (idolatry).
There seems to be much confusion over what I assumed was a clear statement. By talking about Catholics who "idolatrize" Christianity by saving themselves, I meant those who spit on Christ's redemption and say, "Thank you very much, I can save myself through works without your help."

What I don't get is why a loving God would allow so many billions of His children to burn in hell for all eternity, even going so far as allowing demons to lead them down the wrong path. Sounds like a God who doesn't put much effort in helping His own. Basically, a person is expected to know the right choice. Making the wrong one means eternal torture. And there's nothing to inform one of how to make this choice other than what they are told by people. This is what I have so much trouble with.

i second that - emphatically!
and the matter of free will is one thing, as i think questioning is truly human nature (which God has to realise, or why would he have had jesus experience humanity?*) but allowing something so persuasive as demons to pull a person away from the lord seems cruel to me.  it's unnecessary and adds a strong bias against the christian path, and i can't understand why god wouldn't eliminate such a strong case against him if he wants us all to find him.
to me, that's like a horrid game.
*and why would he need to if he sees/knows all and is everywhere?
I believe God chooses not to know everything in order to preserve our free will. While he has the ability to know everything (all time lies before him, and he can enter any page at will), I believe he restricts himself to knowing just enough to keep the basic story line in the right direction, whereas Satan, the prince of this world, is intricately involved in the pursuit to undo God's plan. I think this accounts for why demonic influence is so prevalent and God seems to be absent. It does seem to be tipped in Satan's favor, but we have prayer and his Word, and good will eventually triumph over evil, no matter how hard Satan tries. And I believe that God chooses out those who are going to receive salvation and woos them in particular (Romans 9). He does look after his own--he just has a different view of who that is. Remember he's an artist--not all his creations are going to pique his interest.

Is that what all Catholics believe or just some?

Hey everyone: Just a quick note.

If you want to quote what someone else is saying, there is a button/link on the top right of someone's individual message that you can click to reply specifically to that person.

I noticed a few of you are using the color settings to differentiate your posts from your responses. Just thought I'd help you out.

there are still plenty of - surprise - theists that don't believe evolution exists.  this should make them understand why atheists & agnostics have so much trouble: they feel that 'proof' of God is everywhere, yet A&As can't 'see' it.
evolutionary proof is everywhere, yet so many of them choose to ignore it or simply don't see it.
perhaps this is a half-way point.



actually, i know that's there but i hate using it because it makes the posts a LOT longer than necessary.  they're often hard to follow when there are many points made in the reference post yet there's a short response, because it's not always easy to figure out what exactly is being referenced.

this way is a lot shorter and cleaner, in my humble (hah) opinion.


and, finally,

if god plays favourites, i'm obviously not on that list.  this angers me a great deal, though.
i would think God would care more about those who struggle with their beliefs and faith, if he's as fair and loving and all those other 'good' things we're supposed to believe.  why would he essentially favour those with more of a 'free ride' and abandon those of us who have difficulties?
for a god to focus on those that already are sold on him and simply take no interest in those who aren't, that certainly is quite appalling, really. 
that's like having a house full of kids and choosing to focus your attention on the ones that are sweetest and show the most love; the ones that are troubled apparently can just be ignored, or at least have less attention paid to them, because they're just going to end up losers and have no hope for their futures, anyway.
if that's how the christian god truly is, then i'm saddened to admit i want no part of christianity.