The Sleeper
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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2008, 01:29:22 PM » |
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Well, I suppose you have to start somewhere. Try praying to the god that you're researching and ask for peace that passes understanding. Then start trying to get some understanding of that god, and see if the peace fills in the gaps that you don't understand. In the meantime, I'll be praying to the Christian God on your behalf, since I believe he is the God of gods and can prevent any other god from giving you a false sense of peace (which, considering your tendency to question is going to be a tall order to fill anyway). Are you saying that whatever God you believe will prevent you from any other god giving you a false sense of peace is the one you should pray to? I'm saying that I'm going to pray for the one true God to help you discern between complacency and a true peace that is grounded in knowing you're safe and loved for all eternity. I assume people of other religions probably get a sense of "peace" about their religion, but it's not grounded in truth. How do I dare to make a statement like that? I believe that when Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me," he made it clear that only one religion can save (other religions have similar stances, and the ones that say they tolerate other faiths put them down as inferior or assimilate them beyond recognition). So how is it that people of other faiths get a peace about their religions? Here I can only guess, but my guess is based upon the fact that Satan is an excellent counterfeit. I believe that other religions were started by demons posing as gods, and these demons can give a sense of complacency that looks like peace. And that can last for a lifetime, but sooner or later the idol-worshiper is going to wake up to a pretty harsh reality. Speaking of idols, what is it that you're holding on to as most dear to you--what keeps you living from day to day? I ask because I'm confuddled by how you can be searching for God and not finding him. God promises in his word that "If you seek me, you will find me, if you search with all your heart." It's pretty hard to believe that you're not searching with all your heart, but it's also pretty hard to believe that God would promise something and make you wait your whole life to fulfill that promise, whereas for some people He keeps that promise from the time they are born. So I'm wondering if there's something in your heart that keeps you from seeing what you need to see. I hope this question doesn't sound too harsh; I hope it simply prompts an honest, deep soul searching. Is there something that you're not willing to let go of in your pursuit of the truth? But what makes YOU right, and THEM wrong? Because it's in the Bible? It is also in the Torah, and it is also in the Koran. It is in the sacred text of every religion that they are right and everybody else is wrong. So what makes YOUR choice the one TRUE choice, and all others the wrong ones? |
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 12:15:44 PM by Scott »
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Okay, woke to a grocery list...
Goes like this:
Duty and death.
-Aesop Rock
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Scott
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2008, 09:51:09 AM » |
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Well, I suppose you have to start somewhere. Try praying to the god that you're researching and ask for peace that passes understanding. Then start trying to get some understanding of that god, and see if the peace fills in the gaps that you don't understand. In the meantime, I'll be praying to the Christian God on your behalf, since I believe he is the God of gods and can prevent any other god from giving you a false sense of peace (which, considering your tendency to question is going to be a tall order to fill anyway). Are you saying that whatever God you believe will prevent you from any other god giving you a false sense of peace is the one you should pray to? I'm saying that I'm going to pray for the one true God to help you discern between complacency and a true peace that is grounded in knowing you're safe and loved for all eternity. But how do you know He's the one true God? I assume people of other religions probably get a sense of "peace" about their religion, but it's not grounded in truth. How do I dare to make a statement like that? I believe that when Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me," he made it clear that only one religion can save (other religions have similar stances, and the ones that say they tolerate other faiths put them down as inferior or assimilate them beyond recognition).
Other peoples' sense of peace isn't grounded in truth? How do I know that? Because the Jesus says so. How do I know Jesus is right? Because the Bible says so. How do I know the Bible is right? Because Jesus says so. How do I know Jesus is right? Because the Bible says so. How do I know the Bible is right? Because Jesus says so. Trust me, I'm not trying to be an asshole about it but I just wanted to point out the fallacy:  So how is it that people of other faiths get a peace about their religions? Here I can only guess, but my guess is based upon the fact that Satan is an excellent counterfeit. I believe that other religions were started by demons posing as gods, and these demons can give a sense of complacency that looks like peace. And that can last for a lifetime, but sooner or later the idol-worshiper is going to wake up to a pretty harsh reality.
Other people in a different religion might say the same thing about your religion, yet you offer up no good reason that your religion is better than theirs. Look, here's the logic (putting aside the obvious aforementioned logic loop)- I believe God exists -> I believe the Christian God is the right one -> I believe Jesus died for my sins -> Jesus says Satan will trick me any chance he gets -> I believe Satan fools Christ-less people into a false sense of security/peace -> [Anything you say that's not Christ-centered] is from the devil It makes perfect sense, assuming all the links in the chain are completely unbreakable but here's the typical circular logic required for someone to believe in God (the first link in the chain)- I know God exists because the Bible says so. God wrote the Bible so we know God exists, because the bible says so (repeat ad nauseam). Of course, I know you can throw in things like personal experiences, feelings you have inside or unexplainable things you attribute to God, but that doesn't cover it because the reason you're attributing those things to God in the first place is based on the logic loop. You can see why it drives me batty. Speaking of idols, what is it that you're holding on to as most dear to you--what keeps you living from day to day? I ask because I'm confuddled by how you can be searching for God and not finding him. God promises in his word that "If you seek me, you will find me, if you search with all your heart." It's pretty hard to believe that you're not searching with all your heart, but it's also pretty hard to believe that God would promise something and make you wait your whole life to fulfill that promise, whereas for some people He keeps that promise from the time they are born. So I'm wondering if there's something in your heart that keeps you from seeing what you need to see. I hope this question doesn't sound too harsh; I hope it simply prompts an honest, deep soul searching. Is there something that you're not willing to let go of in your pursuit of the truth?
Of course you would say that because you believe in God and you, as a requirement of the religion, aren't allowed to see it any other way. I'm not trying to attack you personally but this is directed straight at me. I don't mind it though. I used to be Christian and arguing from where you are now, so if anything, in my search for God, I've traveled further away from believing because it makes less and less sense to me. |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2008, 10:08:56 PM » |
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daaaang, i'm having a bit of trouble following the quotes here. =P because of this, i'll just re-read and then type about it, as you're all familiar enough to figure it out by now. hehe
i hope you'll be able to follow my bit, though, as it's rather late and my mind is turning a bit wonky. don't say i didn't warn you... 
scott's reference to the 'logic loop' is an excellent bit of evidence for why i do struggle so much with christianity. it's so easy to be trapped by the 'default' pattern, where two factors are completely dependent on each other and are so used to answer a question.
the harder i've tried to let christianity in, the harder it is for me to know what to believe. there are so many questions that, for me, just can't be so easily answered. it's not enough for me to be told 'because God says so'; i have to have the whys, but the bible constantly reverts to that basic argument: believe what the bible says, because God says so, and he's responsible for the bible, so we believe because....ad nauseam.
i guess my resistance in some ways stems from the fact that the bible is the answer to the god question, which is the answer to the bible question; there's no independence there.
likewise, i've always been told that worshiping or attempting to worship (and, in some more extreme cases, even just learning about) (an)other god(s) is a sin and condemned by christianGod - and in plenty of other religions, too. they all feel that other religions are inferior because others denounce their particular religion, so how do we even establish which of them is the correct one when they all make the same claim? they all have their 'truths,' their 'evidence,' &c, all whilst pointing the finger and yelling 'liar' to the rest.
it's even more difficult to make a decision when such polarities exist, because it's like two guys fighting over one girl (or vice-versa): if they reduce things to name-calling and 'i'm better than you are' tactics, it makes them both seem that much less appealing, that much easier to turn away from.
...moving on...,
we also have a few eastern religions that believe one is one's own 'god'; they strive for total enlightenment, a perfect moral compass, moderation, purity, et c.
in these cases, there isn't one specific 'parent' god. the concept is very different in that respect from monotheism.
i took a quick pause to do a quick fact-check for my next bit when i came across this:
- 'Egotistic species-narcissism makes the homocentric religions more popular than abstract ones as we can understand abstract forces by projecting our own emotions on to them.
- Non homocentric religions are more abstract in nature and deal more with the concepts directly, without anthropomorphisation.
- Typically these Pagan and naturalistic religions contain a stronger-willed subset of the human species.
- The humbling nature of the size of the universe, the insignificance of the Human race lend themselves more to abstract religions in place of anthropomorphized monotheisms.
- ...Our ego and the way we anthropomorphize important concepts means that frequently Gods and spirits have Human character traits and desires, 'projecting' them into inhuman beings.'
(source: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/wir.html)
and, further down the page,
'Atheist religions by far have the kinder record as far as wars and atrocities are concerned. Mono-theistic beliefs are particularly prone to bouts of genocide and war in their endless attempts to wipe out competing deities. Polytheism is better off as it naturally assumes a less violent attitude towards other Gods.'
before i ramble on 'til the sun rises, i'll stop myself here. also, this isn't meant to be an attack on anyone or anything; just trying to get all these lightning-thoughts out before i forget them. (=
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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melidere
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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2008, 06:02:44 AM » |
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How do I know my God is the true God? It really comes down to whether we can prove the authenticity of the Bible as opposed to other holy writings. I have not studied other holy writings, so maybe someone else can be of help there. I will make a case for the authenticity of the Bible when I have more time to research websites that will back up my points. For now I will say in my limited amount of time about why I choose Christianity. All other religions have gods that require you to work to earn your way into heaven/nirvana, etc. There is never any peace knowing that you will make the cut. You're always comparing yourself to others, saying "I'm sure I'll make it because I'm better than Susie Q over there" and always wondering if you're really going to make it because Johnny B. Good is doing a better job than you are. Christianity (apart from some branches of Catholicism) isn't that way. The jailer asked Paul the simple, profound question, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul's answer was, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Once you've accepted Christ as your only Lord and Savior, the rest is just about saying thank you for giving you that salvation--the only way you can forfeit that salvation is if you grieve the Holy Spirit by renouncing your faith.
Well, got to get the kids in the car so we can go to Coffee Break; maybe the ladies will have more to add to the discussion.
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Scott
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2008, 07:46:22 AM » |
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How do I know my God is the true God? It really comes down to whether we can prove the authenticity of the Bible as opposed to other holy writings. I have not studied other holy writings, so maybe someone else can be of help there. I will make a case for the authenticity of the Bible when I have more time to research websites that will back up my points. For now I will say in my limited amount of time about why I choose Christianity. All other religions have gods that require you to work to earn your way into heaven/nirvana, etc. There is never any peace knowing that you will make the cut. You're always comparing yourself to others, saying "I'm sure I'll make it because I'm better than Susie Q over there" and always wondering if you're really going to make it because Johnny B. Good is doing a better job than you are. Christianity (apart from some branches of Catholicism) isn't that way. The jailer asked Paul the simple, profound question, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul's answer was, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Once you've accepted Christ as your only Lord and Savior, the rest is just about saying thank you for giving you that salvation--the only way you can forfeit that salvation is if you grieve the Holy Spirit by renouncing your faith.
Well, got to get the kids in the car so we can go to Coffee Break; maybe the ladies will have more to add to the discussion.
So you completely disregard the logic problem, assume there is a God and jump straight into a comparison between them? It doesn't seem like you're reading my points, let alone considering them. However, I'll still give you the courtesy. Regarding your claim that Christianity is the only religion where you can get into heaven by grace alone, I'd have to say I disagree on two points: 1. Careful with cherry-picking on "all you need is to accept Christ as your only Lord and Savior." Here's a little excerpt from James 2 (14-18): 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.And 2. Careful with your claim that Christianity is the only faith that works this way. Here's a little excerpt from the Qur'an: 1. "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).
2. "And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (42:26, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).
3. "O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace," (8:29, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir). Both religions clearly require faith and good works. |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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melidere
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2008, 08:48:02 AM » |
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How do I know my God is the true God? It really comes down to whether we can prove the authenticity of the Bible as opposed to other holy writings. I have not studied other holy writings, so maybe someone else can be of help there. I will make a case for the authenticity of the Bible when I have more time to research websites that will back up my points.So you completely disregard the logic problem, assume there is a God and jump straight into a comparison between them? It doesn't seem like you're reading my points, let alone considering them. However, I'll still give you the courtesy.Please note that I was not disregarding the logic problem but simply pushing it aside until I had more time to deal with it. I think that if we can prove that the Bible is God-inspired, we have a case both for the validity of the Bible and the superiority of God (too bad we can't just prove him with a big fire match like in Elijah's day--that would be pretty cool--and I'm not even a pyromaniac!). How do we go about authenticating the Bible? We have to prove that it's put together by more than human effort. For that, we go to prophecy. I think the most convincing example of Bible prophecy is Psalm 22--written by David hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented, yet predicting Christ's manner of death. "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint." I was just reading about the pericardial effusion (fluid buildup around the heart) and the pleural effusion (fluid buildup around the lungs) that Christ must have suffered, as evidenced by the fluids that poured out of him when the soldier pierced his right side. I also read that when they nailed the crossbeam to the stake in the ground, Jesus would have dislocated his shoulders (his bones were out of joint). But that's just one example of many; for more evidence look at http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml (the wordy reference which explains the probabilities of these prophecies being fulfilled) or http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm (a table listing prophecies and their fulfillments). I must remind you that when you look at these websites, you must have an open heart, praying for the faith to believe (faith is what takes you from hearing facts to believing those facts--without it you can hear all the facts in the world and yet refuse to believe). I have to get the kids off to school. More later (you've really got me thinking about the James passage).
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2008, 10:48:06 AM » |
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i'm going to have a closer look at those links right after i post this; so far, though, these are things i've heard before from many others. i'm not saying that there aren't convincing points; however, some of the other things i brought up in my last post are things that i'm really curious about hearing other views on.
i certainly like the scripture (bible & qur'an) quoted, though; i'll definitely look more into those too.
i was hoping someone would more directly reference the parts starting with the 'worship' section (likewise, i've always been told that worshiping or attempting to worship....) onward. we've touched on some of the points in green, but i'd like to explore that end a bit more in depth also.
also, it's not proven facts i take much issue with, it's when opinions and theories are presented as solid facts. it's also how some choose to interpret facts in a way that debases or misrepresents the fact itself.
(i realise that interpretation of facts so,so often comes up in the case for faith - without any belief or faith, they'd just be facts, and this applies to much more than just religion. however, i'm referring to the complete skewing and manipulation of facts or, in some circumstances, an approach to facts as if they were unimportant.)
...i wish i could think of another word for 'fact' because it's starting to sound like a foreign word from repeating it so many times. 
anyhow.
here's a fact: even when i think i'm only going to post a short note, i can't seem to do it. rofl
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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Scott
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2008, 11:15:19 AM » |
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How do I know my God is the true God? It really comes down to whether we can prove the authenticity of the Bible as opposed to other holy writings. I have not studied other holy writings, so maybe someone else can be of help there. I will make a case for the authenticity of the Bible when I have more time to research websites that will back up my points.So you completely disregard the logic problem, assume there is a God and jump straight into a comparison between them? It doesn't seem like you're reading my points, let alone considering them. However, I'll still give you the courtesy.Please note that I was not disregarding the logic problem but simply pushing it aside until I had more time to deal with it. I think that if we can prove that the Bible is God-inspired, we have a case both for the validity of the Bible and the superiority of God (too bad we can't just prove him with a big fire match like in Elijah's day--that would be pretty cool--and I'm not even a pyromaniac!). How do we go about authenticating the Bible? We have to prove that it's put together by more than human effort. For that, we go to prophecy. I think the most convincing example of Bible prophecy is Psalm 22--written by David hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented, yet predicting Christ's manner of death. "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint." I was just reading about the pericardial effusion (fluid buildup around the heart) and the pleural effusion (fluid buildup around the lungs) that Christ must have suffered, as evidenced by the fluids that poured out of him when the soldier pierced his right side. I also read that when they nailed the crossbeam to the stake in the ground, Jesus would have dislocated his shoulders (his bones were out of joint). But that's just one example of many; for more evidence look at http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml (the wordy reference which explains the probabilities of these prophecies being fulfilled) or http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm (a table listing prophecies and their fulfillments). I must remind you that when you look at these websites, you must have an open heart, praying for the faith to believe (faith is what takes you from hearing facts to believing those facts--without it you can hear all the facts in the world and yet refuse to believe). I have to get the kids off to school. More later (you've really got me thinking about the James passage). Three points: 1.) If you can argue definitively that the Bible is the only place where prophecies come true, you win. If, however, you're arguing that because the Bible has so many prophecies that came true and the only evidence is inside that book, you haven't convinced me. 2.) If I told you "Nostradamus has made tons of correct prophecies/predictions" and the only way you can jump from faith to belief is to have an open heart, you've completely walled off anyone with faith from having doubt. You're essentially saying "if you don't believe, your heart is closed and you don't have faith" This is, of course, a great way to argue with a completely closed mind but nothing beneficial will come of it. 3.) I understand that a Christian mindset is "I have to spread the word to the four corners of the world and be the salt of the earth," but if you're completely shutting your mind off to all other possibilities, you're no longer discussing, you're telling. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but if every religious person had that mind-frame, there might be wars in the name of God. Oh wait... |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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melidere
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2008, 12:09:45 PM » |
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Three points:
1.) If you can argue definitively that the Bible is the only place where prophecies come true, you win. If, however, you're arguing that because the Bible has so many prophecies that came true and the only evidence is inside that book, you haven't convinced me.
2.) If I told you "Nostradamus has made tons of correct prophecies/predictions" and the only way you can jump from faith to belief is to have an open heart, you've completely walled off anyone with faith from having doubt. You're essentially saying "if you don't believe, your heart is closed and you don't have faith" This is, of course, a great way to argue with a completely closed mind but nothing beneficial will come of it.
3.) I understand that a Christian mindset is "I have to spread the word to the four corners of the world and be the salt of the earth," but if you're completely shutting your mind off to all other possibilities, you're no longer discussing, you're telling. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but if every religious person had that mind-frame, there might be wars in the name of God.
Oh wait...
1. The Bible is the only place that has no incorrect prophecies. As I was researching, I came across these numbers: there are 2500 prophecies in the Bible, 2000 of which have been correctly fulfilled. The other 500 are waiting to be fulfilled. None of these prophecies missed the mark (i.e. predicting the Messiah would die by the guillotine).
2. Nostradamus made so many vague predictions that some of them were bound to come true. I don't believe because research shows he's a fraud. I'm sorry I sounded like I was accusing you of having a closed heart. I was trying to remind you to pray for "ears that hear"--not implying that your heart WAS hard but afraid it might be. Incidentally, did you pray?
Gotta go pick up the oldest from school. More to come.
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2008, 12:15:11 PM » |
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.... i was hoping someone would more directly reference the parts starting with the 'worship' section (likewise, i've always been told that worshiping or attempting to worship....) onward. we've touched on some of the points in green, but i'd like to explore that end a bit more in depth also. anyone?  ....at all?? ...... ...ellipses.... |
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 12:31:58 PM by pyroclasticlux »
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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Scott
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« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2008, 12:19:08 PM » |
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.... i was hoping someone would more directly reference the parts starting with the 'worship' section (likewise, i've always been told that worshiping or attempting to worship....) onward. we've touched on some of the points in green, but i'd like to explore that end a bit more in depth also. anyone? .... Sorry, can't help you there, Tara. :] |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2008, 12:33:40 PM » |
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also,
3.) I understand that a Christian mindset is "I have to spread the word to the four corners of the world and be the salt of the earth," but if you're completely shutting your mind off to all other possibilities, you're no longer discussing, you're telling. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but if every religious person had that mind-frame, there might be wars in the name of God.
right now, that's probably the single biggest issue i have with religion: the whole you're 100% wrong, i'm 100% right thing.
it seems like there's no room for logic, for understanding of differences, for curiosity, nothing. it's just about how much one can push their belief.
at this point, it feels like what i'm really doing is just resisting all parts of settling down with one religion because they're all so self-centred, it's too frustrating for me. none of the monotheistic ones even care at all about the people that have differing beliefs, they care about converting people and pressurising them into choosing theirs so they can say they've saved another soul! they've spread their word! they've captured another hostage to the lord!
to me, anyone having a belief that brings them great joy and peace is lucky, because they've found something that means a lot to them.
i don't care if it's buddhism, christianity, druidism, wicca, or even freaking atheism: the point is that that individual is happy and fulfilled.
if someone seems lost, i personally would encourage them to do their own research and find out what fills that void in their life - it doesn't make them any better or worse for choosing something i wouldn't necessarily go with.
so long as they're not using it to incite violence or hatred, it's all fine and dandy with me.
it just is aggravating when the whole thing becomes a game of 'who can pull the hardest?'
sorry for any hostility here; i just really want to understand what makes it so accepted to push. there are wars over this shit - thousands of people losing their lives because they have so much pride, conceding isn't even an option; truly understanding isn't even an option; humility isn't even an option.
when groups of humans stop feeling the intense need to be superior to others, then will the fighting stop?
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 12:37:10 PM by pyroclasticlux »
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l'humour est culturel; le rire est universel
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Scott
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« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2008, 12:34:32 PM » |
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Three points:
1.) If you can argue definitively that the Bible is the only place where prophecies come true, you win. If, however, you're arguing that because the Bible has so many prophecies that came true and the only evidence is inside that book, you haven't convinced me.
2.) If I told you "Nostradamus has made tons of correct prophecies/predictions" and the only way you can jump from faith to belief is to have an open heart, you've completely walled off anyone with faith from having doubt. You're essentially saying "if you don't believe, your heart is closed and you don't have faith" This is, of course, a great way to argue with a completely closed mind but nothing beneficial will come of it.
3.) I understand that a Christian mindset is "I have to spread the word to the four corners of the world and be the salt of the earth," but if you're completely shutting your mind off to all other possibilities, you're no longer discussing, you're telling. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but if every religious person had that mind-frame, there might be wars in the name of God.
Oh wait...
1. The Bible is the only place that has no incorrect prophecies. As I was researching, I came across these numbers: there are 2500 prophecies in the Bible, 2000 of which have been correctly fulfilled. The other 500 are waiting to be fulfilled. None of these prophecies missed the mark (i.e. predicting the Messiah would die by the guillotine).
How many have been correctly been fulfilled outside the Biblical text? I ask only because you're aware that there were parts of the original books that were meant to go into your current Bible that didn't make the cut (canonization), right? I wonder if those would hold water as well. 2. Nostradamus made so many vague predictions that some of them were bound to come true. I don't believe because research shows he's a fraud. I'm sorry I sounded like I was accusing you of having a closed heart. I was trying to remind you to pray for "ears that hear"--not implying that your heart WAS hard but afraid it might be. Incidentally, did you pray?
Gotta go pick up the oldest from school. More to come.
I used to be Christian. Currently, I'm "agnostic with the hope that there is a God." So no, I didn't pray because from where I'm sitting, there'd be no good reason to pray to one God over the other. |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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Scott
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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2008, 12:46:24 PM » |
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also,
3.) I understand that a Christian mindset is "I have to spread the word to the four corners of the world and be the salt of the earth," but if you're completely shutting your mind off to all other possibilities, you're no longer discussing, you're telling. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but if every religious person had that mind-frame, there might be wars in the name of God.
right now, that's probably the single biggest issue i have with religion: the whole you're 100% wrong, i'm 100% right thing.
it seems like there's no room for logic, for understanding of differences, for curiosity, nothing. it's just about how much one can push their belief.
at this point, it feels like what i'm really doing is just resisting all parts of settling down with one religion because they're all so self-centred, it's too frustrating for me. none of the monotheistic ones even care at all about the people that have differing beliefs, they care about converting people and pressurising them into choosing theirs so they can say they've saved another soul! they've spread their word! they've captured another hostage to the lord!
to me, anyone having a belief that brings them great joy and peace is lucky, because they've found something that means a lot to them.
i don't care if it's buddhism, christianity, druidism, wicca, or even freaking atheism: the point is that that individual is happy and fulfilled.
if someone seems lost, i personally would encourage them to do their own research and find out what fills that void in their life - it doesn't make them any better or worse for choosing something i wouldn't necessarily go with.
so long as they're not using it to incite violence or hatred, it's all fine and dandy with me.
it just is aggravating when the whole thing becomes a game of 'who can pull the hardest?'
sorry for any hostility here; i just really want to understand what makes it so accepted to push. there are wars over this shit - thousands of people losing their lives because they have so much pride, conceding isn't even an option; truly understanding isn't even an option; humility isn't even an option.
when groups of humans stop feeling the intense need to be superior to others, then will the fighting stop?
[/size]Tara, if I ever become religious again, I'll be a devout follower (with some kind of proof/foundation/logic to back it up, of course). Part of being a devout follower is believing that your God is the one true God and that others are false Gods. That's part of the cleverness of religion: any skepticism or doubt is the devil playing mind games with you. It's not just Christianity, it's most of the major monotheistic religions. For instance, if I were Muslim and a Christian were asking me to see the "truth" because my way is the "wrong" way, for me to open my mind to try and see their perspective would be blasphemy and the devil whispering into my ear. Now if you flip it around, it's the same thing. It doesn't matter who is ultimately correct, both sides believe the devil is whispering to them if they even veer slightly from their religions. This is why wars happen: people are so closed to any other religions or beliefs and believe they should either convert or destroy infidels (unbelievers). The problem is, in order for a religion to work, you kind of have to think that way, otherwise you're just mostly following that religion versus fully following it. Put simply: if you don't believe your religion is right and other religions are wrong, then you aren't a "true believer." It's the hook that keeps people in the unquestioning state, despite the logic loops that have been presented for quite some time now. |
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing." -- Albert Einstein
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pyroclasticlux
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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2008, 12:58:54 PM » |
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scott, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.
perhaps it's that very hook that's not only kept me in this state for this long, but which might ultimately keep me partially unconvinced for the rest of my life.
i want God to exist, but i just feel like i'd be excluding so many wonderful people by condoning that there's only one true path. it's impossible to save everyone, and i think it'd be, in many ways, just a set-up for failure.
i see all the flaws in that logic, too, especially as it goes against the fundamentals of monotheism. i also realise that this may change in the future & that i may well become a 'true believer' some day. at this point in my life, though, it's quite hard for me to completely change my way of thinking.
i'm still open to what others have to say, and i am really hopeful that i might come across 'the smoking gun', i just think it's also a good idea to point out the root of my resistance so others can see what religion is up against.
i need some really strong points to be convinced, which makes it harder from every aspect. i'm also far too stubborn, which sucks.
arghghhgh.
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